CplMOFO Posted April 22, 2011 Member ID: 1924 Group: ***- Inactive Clan Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1012 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 101 Achievement Points: 5864 Solved Content: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/26/10 Status: Offline Last Seen: February 21, 2023 Birthday: 05/30/1973 Author Share Posted April 22, 2011 My settings on Asus P8P67 DELUXE rev 3.0 BCLK: 100.0 Turbo Ratio: By all cores By all cores: 47x Internal PLL overvoltage: ENABLED EPU Power Saving: DISABLED Load Line Calibration: ULTRA HIGH VRM Frequency: AUTO Phase Control: EXTREME Duty Control: EXTREME Cpu Current Capacity: 130% CPU Manual Voltage: 1.395v DRAM voltage: 1.50625v CPU PLL: 1.8125v CPU Spread Spectrum: ENABLED everything else is on AUTO ADVANCED Tab in EFI BIOS: Intel adaptative Thermal monitor is : ENABLED Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
DREAD69 Posted April 22, 2011 Member ID: 628 Group: *** Clan Members Followers: 25 Topic Count: 71 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 659 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 52 Achievement Points: 5300 Solved Content: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/24/09 Status: Offline Last Seen: April 17 Birthday: 09/19/1986 Device: Android Share Posted April 22, 2011 CplMOFO For Nightmare question: I picked the somewhat cheap 1333 kit, because I seen several benchmarks that are showing that different RAM kits on SB are not display a lot of "real life" difference...anyway, there is about 1 fps difference in most benches between high-end(1600 and up) and plain jane 1333.. Blackbart: I picked the 2500K after thinking about it quite a bit. My reasoning: I paid $249 for BOTH the CPU and the cooler... I bought from NCIX canada, but you can also buy as an american citizen...there is an american version of the site. www.ncixus.com Pretty reliable I'm buying parts from them since 2004...NEVER had issues... So awesome deal really hard to pass...also, apparently, it's a little easier to reach higher overclocks with a CPU without HT (hyperthreading)...temperatures while OCed are also a little lower. Also, in GAMES benchmarks, the difference between 2600K and 2500K are non-existent in most cases...the 2600K is better in video encoding benches and some professional applications and BENCHMARKS...so the extra $$$ are hard to justify for a gamer... Money-wize, you'd rather put a little extra money on graphics cards than CPUs ( a good balance is needed, but it this case it's a non-issue), because in games, at same clock speed, both chips will perform pretty much the same. On the HD5870 topic, this is the card I actually own right now...pretty good. The Crossfire scaling is known to be even better with the new Hd69**-series...the 2GB of RAM on the HD69**s also helps future-proofing a little bit...it's also better in high anti-aliasing scenarios... but yes, I'm pretty sure, I go back to old faithful nVIDIA in SLI... I'm eyeing the EVGA GTX570s that I can pricematch down to $340 each...this what I want...the wife thinks different LOLZ.. I'll try to keep my card's price to $600 all included (sale's tax+ shipping)...i might have to wait a little more for price drops...or I might settle for 560Tis...but I NEED 570's...this time, I got some slack from the ol lady, it is my intent to use that "window of opportunity" to the MAX. UKILDME, that DELUXE will give you extra LAST STAND/SECOND CHANCE options...lol Just wondering why evan go with sandy if all you are doing is gaming. An old intell quad will not bottle neck on 2 or 3 Graphics processors with the right chipset and configured correctly. When it comes to playing PC games if that is all you are doing you need to pick your graphics cards and make sure you can feed em. I run a 6 core Phenom for $250 at 4.2 GHz and in games I never go ever 60% CPU usage maxing both of my 5870 Eye 6 editions. Oh and with any ram you can tighten timings and lower MHz and still out preform another platform with faster MHz ram. (Can meaning possible) Depends on the system and what you are tuning it for. I can get better video incoding times but with thoes ram settings my FPS in games are lower. So I am configured to get the most out of my GFX. Hell just timings gave me a 40 FPS diffrence in Crysis Warhead and Crysis 2. Funny part I loosened my timings and got better FPS, Dropped my Cenebench score though. Everything just needs tuned for what you are doing. Just wondering what else you want out of it other than gaming because it is a great chip I did not think Sandy was built with gaming in mind. Oh and about GFX I personally go with AMD because I run 5 monitors and can do so with just one card. My second card is just for extra muscle in Crossfire. With Nvidia I would have had to pay for both cards at once to have Triplescreen and still have to add another card or USB to VGA adapters to my other 2 monitors. I got a 5870 Eyefinity 6 edition for 300 and some change and it maxes any game you want on 3 monitors with no AA. Mind I have had it on water and overclocked right to a 1GHz core the whole time I have had it. But now with the cards dropping in price I grabbed another one on sale on egg for $200 and a water Block for $100. So now with the new 11.3 Drivers I am getting 70 to 130 FPS in Crysis 2 Maxed Everything at 4320x900 Res. Crysis Wars runs at 60 to 120 or so. I can evan max AA at that res in Crysis Wars and never go under 55 FPS. So I am stuck with AMD evan if I wanted to go Green untill they can give me 5 monitors at least on one card and then the option to do SLI for more power. Nice setup too man. Plenty of muscle for whatever you want to do I'm sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
DREAD69 Posted April 22, 2011 Member ID: 628 Group: *** Clan Members Followers: 25 Topic Count: 71 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 659 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 52 Achievement Points: 5300 Solved Content: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/24/09 Status: Offline Last Seen: April 17 Birthday: 09/19/1986 Device: Android Share Posted April 22, 2011 Mr-Turkey @Mofo - Looks fine to me mate , its a tricky old game cable management. Cards look sweet @Nightmare - I had a look at your pc under "my PC" in your post , it looks very nice! You having fun with your new set up? I pushed my cpu last night to see how far it could go just for benchmarks and stuff , managed a stable 5ghz at 1.46vcore. Hit a max temp of 82 degrees after 30 mins at 100% load. Back to my 24/7 clock now , but amazing how well these new chips clock! Screenshot of CPUz and core temp with Prime running for a few hours? Just currious. and what cooling are you running? Sounds Great. Wonder how it will scale on what chipset in multi GPU configurations or if it is just a work horse like the I7 was soposed to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
DREAD69 Posted April 22, 2011 Member ID: 628 Group: *** Clan Members Followers: 25 Topic Count: 71 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 659 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 52 Achievement Points: 5300 Solved Content: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/24/09 Status: Offline Last Seen: April 17 Birthday: 09/19/1986 Device: Android Share Posted April 22, 2011 CplMOFO @ LARSIN: Well, it's perfectly stable, but who know how warm it's gonna be this summer. If I get a air conditioning unit for my computer room this summer, this setting could still be pretty good. but as warmer summer air is used to cool off components, efficiency of air cooling drops a little...gotta keep a good balance...and room temps at 25 celsius or below... I shot for 4.5-4.6 anyway. To be honest, the difference between 4.6 and 4.7 is pretty slim (400 points in 3dmarks VANTAGE)...I'll probably back it down to 4.6...just to save a few milivolts and degrees Everything below 80 degrees is safe( for sandy bridge...other CPUs are different, careful there!!!), but I like to keep things under 70 degrees...my 4.6 setting gives me that...(above temps were during stress test, max reached 73 celsius) gaming temps are a good 5 degrees celsius below stress test temps... @ BAMA: I hear you...this stuff is like drugs to me...now, I have to stop looking at computer parts sales and concentrate in helping others...my spending spree is over... BTW The H70 is pretty nice looking and effective...fan noise can be heard, but it's no biggie...lower temps is the best! anyway, in my case I have so many fans, it's like a wind tunnel... Keep in touch, let me know which CPU/mobo you got and we can look at "safe" settings... The reason why you are not seeing gains is you have to tune other parts of the system too. Something is causeing a bottleneck. I can get higher scores at 4GHz than 4.2. If the 4.2 is with everything else stock and the 4GHz I tuned mem and northbridge (Memory Controller). When you hit a wall like that something else is playing diffrent with your new CPU speeds. So when you get stable with your CPU where you want it then starting tuning ram timings (Tighter timings can be helped with Overvolting but make sure you keep the ram cool) and tuning your Memory controller. I have seen many people that hit a preformance wall and dropping ram speed has evan caused preformance gains. Because the ram or memory controller was not so stable once the CPU reached higher speeds. Well crap I'm draining my cooling and seeing if I can get my pump broke loose. I want to do some benchmarking now reading all this and seeing screenshots and all..... Got to get off this server PC today! Great setup man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
CplMOFO Posted April 22, 2011 Member ID: 1924 Group: ***- Inactive Clan Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1012 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 101 Achievement Points: 5864 Solved Content: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/26/10 Status: Offline Last Seen: February 21, 2023 Birthday: 05/30/1973 Author Share Posted April 22, 2011 Dread, Let's not turn my topic into a shit-show...if you want to argue benchmarks, testing methodology, go to Xtremesystems.... Sandy bridge is new and nice, giving better performance than AMD Phenom IIs X4 and X6 nobody's gonna argue with that. and we're talking at a CHEAP CPU that kicks some ass... IMHO a X6 Phenom II is a good platform. Good stuff if you like it...It pumps impressive CINEBENCH scores...but CINEBENCH has nothing to do with anything close to gaming...this is why I never bother... People choosing X6 CPUs are doing it for it's number crunching capability, where the extra 2 cores make a difference. Why not making a AMD thread? You could be really helpful to the >XI< clan members taht own AMD CPUs...I don't know much about them anymore (R.I.P Athlon 64 3400+ Clawhammer circa 2004) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
DREAD69 Posted April 22, 2011 Member ID: 628 Group: *** Clan Members Followers: 25 Topic Count: 71 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 659 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 52 Achievement Points: 5300 Solved Content: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/24/09 Status: Offline Last Seen: April 17 Birthday: 09/19/1986 Device: Android Share Posted April 22, 2011 CplMOFO Dread, Let's not turn my topic into a shit-show...if you want to argue benchmarks, testing methodology, go to Xtremesystems.... Sandy bridge is new and nice, giving better performance than AMD Phenom IIs X4 and X6 nobody's gonna argue with that. and we're talking at a CHEAP CPU that kicks some ass... IMHO a X6 Phenom II is a good platform. Good stuff if you like it...It pumps impressive CINEBENCH scores...but CINEBENCH has nothing to do with anything close to gaming...this is why I never bother... People choosing X6 CPUs are doing it for it's number crunching capability, where the extra 2 cores make a difference. Why not making a AMD thread? You could be really helpful to the >XI< clan members taht own AMD CPUs...I don't know much about them anymore (R.I.P Athlon 64 3400+ Clawhammer circa 2004) Sory the why evan sandy was because I expected I did not realise what kind of work you did that I do not. My system is not built for video encoding and editing and such so I know a system built for that would have a intell CPU with a binary calculator built in. Just was wondering seriously. Ummmm I was trying to help. Also not compairing systems as I did not ask to have a bench off. I was saying that about cenebench because it might help. I tighten my timings and go for the highest MHz and I get better work benches. Like video encode and all that jazz anything that is work related. Then I lost all preformance in Crossfire. Dropped my timings slowing down my benchmarks like cene and BAM my FPS came back up and everything started working right. Was saying just because hereing diffrent computer setups and problems/fixes help me make my system runn better for what I want to do. I also like the cpus and see no way how I was bashing them. Sorry if your wheaties have been pissed in this morning but I am not the guy that has been trying to do that. My computer is down right now and I am leaning over a server PC I threw together to play on the fourms because I am bored. Was saying I like the CPUs and typing info because it might help. I have a friend here with a I7 980X and I still help tune up that system..... Sorry was trying to be nice and bored man I apologize and guess I will not post like that in your forum again but I am not going to Xtremesystems when we have such a badass forum right here with the Idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
DREAD69 Posted April 22, 2011 Member ID: 628 Group: *** Clan Members Followers: 25 Topic Count: 71 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 659 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 52 Achievement Points: 5300 Solved Content: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/24/09 Status: Offline Last Seen: April 17 Birthday: 09/19/1986 Device: Android Share Posted April 22, 2011 Not once did I compair the diffrent CPUs. The comment about ram timings and cenebench can happen with any system. CPU is so fast that other things are not running stable as they were so time to find the problem or have a 5GHz OC that is slower than a 4GHz OC on the same system. It's like having 500 Horsepower and not getting it from the motor to the road. I was talking in gen and using another brand for reference I guess was the cause for confusion because people feel so strongly for there company. Or maybe you just do not want my advice but I just read all I can about computers because I work on them. Sorry again. PEACE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
CplMOFO Posted April 22, 2011 Member ID: 1924 Group: ***- Inactive Clan Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1012 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 101 Achievement Points: 5864 Solved Content: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/26/10 Status: Offline Last Seen: February 21, 2023 Birthday: 05/30/1973 Author Share Posted April 22, 2011 No issue DREAD...I understand your point better now. I layed "suppressive fire" onto the target a little quick maybe. The issue at hand here is that the more technical it gets, the less interesting it gets for the computer "users", which is the main base here... There is only a handfull of us that like the "nitty gritty" part. I never had much performance boost from tweaking RAM much, I cannot comment on that. The only thing is....with Sandy bridge, because the overclocking doesn't require the RAM speed (in megahertz) to change, for the CPU speed to increase, the incidence of high quality RAM is not as critical... That being said, tighter timings are always nice to have, and higher speed RAM (DDR3-1600 or better) has an incidence.. but it's a benchmark thing...it doesn't translate into better FPS (more than one to 3 FPS max)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
DREAD69 Posted April 22, 2011 Member ID: 628 Group: *** Clan Members Followers: 25 Topic Count: 71 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 659 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 52 Achievement Points: 5300 Solved Content: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/24/09 Status: Offline Last Seen: April 17 Birthday: 09/19/1986 Device: Android Share Posted April 22, 2011 CplMOFO No issue DREAD...I understand your point better now. I layed "suppressive fire" onto the target a little quick maybe. The issue at hand here is that the more technical it gets, the less interesting it gets for the computer "users", which is the main base here... There is only a handfull of us that like the "nitty gritty" part. I never had much performance boost from tweaking RAM much, I cannot comment on that. The only thing is....with Sandy bridge, because the overclocking doesn't require the RAM speed (in megahertz) to change, for the CPU speed to increase, the incidence of high quality RAM is not as critical... That being said, tighter timings are always nice to have, and higher speed RAM (DDR3-1600 or better) has an incidence.. but it's a benchmark thing...it doesn't translate into better FPS (more than one to 3 FPS max)... Well it was just an issue of not being stable for what I was trying to do. For some reason Crossfire Preformance went out the window with my faster timings. Lowered and all was good. I have personally noticed that a tighter timing does not matter as much in any system as much as a higher MHz when it comes to feeding your vid cards. If your CPU is only at 40% to 60% usage and the GPU's are maxed at 99% each I have noticed my min frame and max frame raise from running the faster MHz. But mind you I have to tune my system like crazy because I am trying to max every game I have in Eyefinity or on 3 monitors. It takes a lot more stress onthe system and a bigger chance for error. Games that run fine on one of my monitors and on a old setup give me micro stutter or all kinds of issues when I run 3 times the resolution and everything has to sync up betwine displays. Then you add Crosfire and more issues to overcome. Good to see there are more nerds here to share with! Edit:Hell come to think of it I gained over 1000 points in 3D Mark 06 just using the buss more for the same overclock. Then gained around another 1200 Points from OC on my NB and slowing down my CPU OC. Computers are crazy and we are idiots! XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
CplMOFO Posted April 22, 2011 Member ID: 1924 Group: ***- Inactive Clan Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1012 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 101 Achievement Points: 5864 Solved Content: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/26/10 Status: Offline Last Seen: February 21, 2023 Birthday: 05/30/1973 Author Share Posted April 22, 2011 Dread, As I can see, incidence on bus speed and memory timings might be different for Intel and AMD users. I've not a whole lot of knowledge of the particularities of the recent AMD platforms. The only AMD CPU than I own is a Turion Ultra 2.2GHz in my laptop. I had a Athlon64 back in the day, but my mobo didn't have a AGP/PCI LOCK, so any overclocking would boost the PCI/AGP bus and cause video errors... I was considering AMD Bulldozer, and I really wish they get back in the game, and come on top, to create some competition. Now, I know that some people here have questions about AMD cpus, sounds like we found the "subject matter expert"... As for AMD Videocards, they're really good nowadays, Peace! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
Mr-Turkey Posted April 22, 2011 Member ID: 681 Group: **- Inactive Registered Users Followers: 0 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 61 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Achievement Points: 385 Solved Content: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/03/09 Status: Offline Last Seen: Never Birthday: 07/18/1977 Share Posted April 22, 2011 DREAD69 Mr-Turkey @Mofo - Looks fine to me mate , its a tricky old game cable management. Cards look sweet @Nightmare - I had a look at your pc under "my PC" in your post , it looks very nice! You having fun with your new set up? I pushed my cpu last night to see how far it could go just for benchmarks and stuff , managed a stable 5ghz at 1.46vcore. Hit a max temp of 82 degrees after 30 mins at 100% load. Back to my 24/7 clock now , but amazing how well these new chips clock! Screenshot of CPUz and core temp with Prime running for a few hours? Just currious. and what cooling are you running? Sounds Great. Wonder how it will scale on what chipset in multi GPU configurations or if it is just a work horse like the I7 was soposed to be. Hi Dread , TBH it hit 82 within the first 5 mins of prime , it then fluctuated between low 70s back up to 82 for the remainder of the 30 mins. I saw no point in running it any longer seeing as I am never going to run the cpu at 5ghz for a 24/7 setup. Like I say it was just for a couple of benchmarks and it certainly got a very good score in one of them , passmark performance test it scored 13025 for the cpu! I have a thermaltake frio for the cooler , and have the fan speeds about 1/2 way , its far too noisy on high. 24/7 clock is 4.6ghz which I feel is a nice safe level for these crazy new cpu's. Cheers Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DREAD69 Posted April 23, 2011 Member ID: 628 Group: *** Clan Members Followers: 25 Topic Count: 71 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 659 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 52 Achievement Points: 5300 Solved Content: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/24/09 Status: Offline Last Seen: April 17 Birthday: 09/19/1986 Device: Android Share Posted April 23, 2011 So how does it work? Are you saying that overclocking your ram and chipsets or memory controller gives no preformance gains on sandy bridge? With any I7 I ever met you get better overclocking with the bus evan with everything ending up at the same clock speeds because the base clock is faster. You have multipliers for the other components in your system but to overclock with these it is done in big steps. If you use the base clock it raises everything else. I am just trying to understand now. So with sandy bridge you only overclock the CPU and nothing else because they have set it already and everything is perfect. Like if your ram is at 1200MHz and your ram can run 1333 you cannot use the base clock or bus to overclock the ram a little bit and use your dividers like every other computer? If you can there is no bennifit from it? Only CPU overclocking with the multiplier? No OC on the bus at all? This is something I really want to understand now because I overclock everything I can get my hands on. Thanks for the info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
CplMOFO Posted April 23, 2011 Member ID: 1924 Group: ***- Inactive Clan Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1012 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 101 Achievement Points: 5864 Solved Content: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/26/10 Status: Offline Last Seen: February 21, 2023 Birthday: 05/30/1973 Author Share Posted April 23, 2011 KK, I'll try to make this as simple as I understand it... Sandy bridge as a FIXED base clock...you CANNOT touch it, because the memory controller (now on the CPU, like the AMDs) uses that clock...the graphics core on Sandy also uses the BCLK as a reference...they call in a "RING BUS"...so the non-K models can't be OCed more than a few mhz extra...you NEED a K-series (2500K or 2600K) To overclock, the Sandy Bridge K-SERIES are like the AMD BLACK EDITION CPUs...the multiplier is unlocked...so as you cannot paly with CLK on SB, you raise the multi... For the RAM, you don't NEED to buy RAM that can stand higher speeds (overclocking RAM) for Sandy bridge, cause teh FSB/BCLK is not invloved in the OC... You can buy faster RAM, like DDR3-1600, DDR3-1866 or even more and get some benefits...you an also buy RAM that has "tighter timings" such as CAS8 or CAS7 instead of CAS9... But if you look at this article the-best-memory-for-sandybridge (BIT-tECH)....sorry can't cut/paste in firefox..annoying... CAS9 1333 RAM is cheaper and perfect for gaming...it has a 2-3% lower performance compared to DDR3-1600...on the SANDYBRIDGE platform... In my situation, I set a budget, and put more money on the motherboard and cooler quality, plus better fans, instead of spending $40 extra $$ for 3 fps...personal choice I guess...I added $500-worth of graphics cards...that more than enough to offset the loss of 3 fps on the ram.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
DREAD69 Posted April 23, 2011 Member ID: 628 Group: *** Clan Members Followers: 25 Topic Count: 71 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 659 Content Per Day: 0.12 Reputation: 52 Achievement Points: 5300 Solved Content: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/24/09 Status: Offline Last Seen: April 17 Birthday: 09/19/1986 Device: Android Share Posted April 23, 2011 Ok so the only Overclocking you do on that platform is the cpu which reaches very good clocks on air for fucking sure. Well you got a great platform there and seems like it should be easy to setup and overclock. Wonder if they will find a way to overclock the IMC on the CPU to make faster ram speeds possible. The sticks default to what they can get with there mult of course because you cannot change the base clock. I think I get the just of it now and actually think there are quite a few that might want to go with one of these when they get a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
CplMOFO Posted April 23, 2011 Member ID: 1924 Group: ***- Inactive Clan Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1012 Content Per Day: 0.21 Reputation: 101 Achievement Points: 5864 Solved Content: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/26/10 Status: Offline Last Seen: February 21, 2023 Birthday: 05/30/1973 Author Share Posted April 23, 2011 There is always the chance that Intel tweaks the RINGbus to allow for BCLK overclock, it's not there yet tho. Maybe with IVY-bridge late this fall or next January... All Sandy motherboards allow for running RAM at the faster speed thay are sold for...a DDR3-1600 will work fine at that speed, but you sometimes have to manually input the settings in the EFI BIOS. As for the CPU overclocking high on air, this is the whole idea behind Sandy...the price is good, a relatively decent aftermarket cooler will do, the CPU architecture is efficient (more powerful clock for clock than i5-7** or i7-8** and 9**)... Gotta say that because the games aren't extremely demanding, a good 1-2 years old platform already does a great job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Awards
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