Respect

[Joe Canadian]

PimpedOutPete

What are you talking about Hx... This kid was born and raised in a loving enviroment. By all accounts, he seems like a child that any parent could be proud of. If thats the case I dont give a shit if the kid was raised by wolves... 

 

We need more like him.. Give his lesbian parents the credit they deserve. You would do the same if they were straight..

Absolutely, if a gay or lesbian couple raise a happy human being they should get all the credit they deserve. Their sexual preferences are irrelevant

[Super Max]

hxtr

Labob

Jezz people Gay not a religion. If you want to adopt a kid because you can not have one it beter be because your sterile not banging an asshole. Then again many women bang them so we . have an adoption program. If two guys want a kid let them make one. Thats what women do and once again its how its done. So gays can do what they do women will do what they do and I for one hope to hell all those kids find a warm loving house to live in. And people I do not give a fucking rats ass who the hell is screwing who. Lets make sure that the kids have some place to be loved OK. Because thats the only question. Jesus another fucking bilgillian dollars spent on an idea instead of a soloution.

-1

 

hear you but............ no kid should be in a severe perverted situation.

 

What if I like to fuck dogs? How about a horse? How about busting one out one on a chicken..... That is fine right? as the pervert is so loving and a great cook. Does that make it ok to have kids? I was born that way......... so normal right?

 

Dont say it is not the same. It's very much the same. Name one animal that is Gay. So who is fucked up........... us or the none gay animals, insects, fish, mammals, humans and so forth? How do you create a world with dick in ass and same sex?

 

If I'm a pervert and fucking a prostitute, stipper, fag, other......... no kids should be involved.

 

Guy are guys.... and guys being gay....... you will fuck anything and no kid will not know what is going on. Is that ok?

 

Not good for any kid!  and no one will forever will change my mind. Call me hard headed........

 

be a fag.......... just leave the kids alone.

Here I have fear of humans and animals, how can you put on a line

Do you know how many husbands come in fucking. Now do not talk shit

From you I expect a little more brains but this is a very narrow.

When adults have sex with each other is not for you if this is a voluntary assessment sheets about it.

How many children are abused in so-called normal families is staggering. Then I'd rather see families where children are happy and have a future provided by their parents.

Let the church get yourself clean ship among their ministers priests priests who abuse young children.

Here in Europe comes one after another scandal and was all by superiors covered up.

 

Yes no heillige men but hypocritical men.

 

But why I condemn the church because not everyone is in church pedophile

[hxtr]

Hans

hxtr

Labob

Jezz people Gay not a religion. If you want to adopt a kid because you can not have one it beter be because your sterile not banging an asshole. Then again many women bang them so we . have an adoption program. If two guys want a kid let them make one. Thats what women do and once again its how its done. So gays can do what they do women will do what they do and I for one hope to hell all those kids find a warm loving house to live in. And people I do not give a fucking rats ass who the hell is screwing who. Lets make sure that the kids have some place to be loved OK. Because thats the only question. Jesus another fucking bilgillian dollars spent on an idea instead of a soloution.

-1

 

hear you but............ no kid should be in a severe perverted situation.

 

What if I like to fuck dogs? How about a horse? How about busting one out one on a chicken..... That is fine right? as the pervert is so loving and a great cook. Does that make it ok to have kids? I was born that way......... so normal right?

 

Dont say it is not the same. It's very much the same. Name one animal that is Gay. So who is fucked up........... us or the none gay animals, insects, fish, mammals, humans and so forth? How do you create a world with dick in ass and same sex?

 

If I'm a pervert and fucking a prostitute, stipper, fag, other......... no kids should be involved.

 

Guy are guys.... and guys being gay....... you will fuck anything and no kid will not know what is going on. Is that ok?

 

Not good for any kid!  and no one will forever will change my mind. Call me hard headed........

 

be a fag.......... just leave the kids alone.

Here I have fear of humans and animals, how can you put on a line

Do you know how many husbands come in ulfucking. Now do not talk shit

From you I expect a little more brains but this is a very narrow.

When adults have sex with each other is not for you if this is a voluntary assessment sheets about it.

How many children are abused in so-called normal families is staggering. Then I'd rather see families where children are happy and have a future provided by their parents.

Let the church get yourself clean ship among their ministers priests priests who abuse young children.

Here in Europe comes one after another scandal and was all by superiors covered up.

 

Yes no heillige men but hypocritical men.

 

But why I condemn the church because not everyone is in church pedophile

Narrow......... maybe at times but to believe what I do takes an open/fucked up mind.

 

Pedophile......... did not say that. What I dont think is right.............  I dont think should be taught... like what's on MTV.

 

As for family life............ shit is fucked up everywhere and way more fucked up case by case. Abuse is abuse we all been through it............ but two fags wanting a kid for their pleasure like a fucking pet I dont think is healthy. Get a goddamn cat!!!!

 

 

 

[Labob]

I have 4 cats. And the women of my house had the balls ripped off the only male one. So I'm being very quite around my house.

[Super Max]

I'd rather see a child grow up with a gay couple who can afford the education and shelter and the child is a good start to give his adult life.

Than a child growing up in a couple who have never worked or trained and where some alcehol violence and drugs go hand in hand.

 

Who is crazy now

 

Why do you think is so much hunger in the world.

To the people that too many children into the world.

Just forget the less educated people know that you also offer a future for these children.

In nature takes care of everything by itself, if no food is more than die a kind and the man thinks that they do not fall into areas artificially maintained, and then you get those images on TV-out and starving children see.

Every parent thinks that just terrible to see the parents who take their responsibility does not saddle you with these images they have not chosen

Let nature do its work and there will be no more hunger in the world.

[Joe Canadian]

Labob

I have 4 cats. And the women of my house had the balls ripped off the only male one. So I'm being very quite around my house.

lol good one Labob

[Shamu]

Well, let's see if I dig myself a hole.

 

First off I am far from religious, do not believe in God, Jesus Christ, Buddah, Mohammed, Dali Lahma or any other religious deity you choose to include. That said I will not say any religion is wrong nor is the existence of some kind of superior being in error. I prefer Facts over Faith and most religions offer very few facts.

 

If any religious thing bothers me it's the obnoxious behavior of right wingers within any religion trying to impose their belief on others.

 

As for homosexuality I have no problem with them as an individual person. I do think it goes against the normal nature of animals. Being in my opinion, abnormal, I think finding a medical solution or gene therapy should be pursued first and foremost and homosexuality should not be considered normal human behavior.

 

Homosexuals getting married? I do not think I really care, it's their choice and I can respect that. I would not like it if it became simply a tool for lower taxes and was not genuine.

 

As adoptive parents I have my doubts about introducing a child into what I consider an abnormal marital relationship. No doubt some could do a very good job as parents but I would prefer the generally accepted family structure for adopted children.

 

I just have my doubts and if the responsibility were on my shoulders for placement of a child a gay couple would be way down on the list. Not an impossibility but very low on the priority list.

 

PS: Know what I miss most  about not being religious? When a friend faces a difficulty I cannot say they will be in my prayers but only in my thoughts. Somehow just being in my thoughts does not offer much encouragement or support.

[PrimalFear]

This is not a new subject, we have talked about it in the politics section where it belongs.

 

First thing the gay community asked for was tolerance, once they achieved tolerance they expected acceptance, now they are seeking celebration and the changing of our laws for their own special interests. Baby steps vs Brass tacks:

 

Marriage (Matrimony) is a sacrament, a holy sacred union between a man and a woman and god.

 

Homosexuality is an abomination against god.

 

There are tons of passages but one will do, weather people want to confront the issue or not, it is our culture and religion of the overwhelming majority of our country and therefore valid to mention. But inappropriate to debate. (Leviticus 20:13 If a man has sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman, the two of them have committed an abomination. They must be put to death; their blood guilt is on themselves.)

 

Gay marriage is asking holy people to condone an abomination against god. (not gonna happen, not realistic and certainly not reasonable)

 

The only solution I see to this problem is to create a civil union process, a contract where any two adults can agree to share property from a strictly legal standpoint, it could be two siblings, a male and female or two people of the same sex.  It does not ask people with biblical viewpoints to condone anything, while still offering a solution to include all people in their right to their own pursuit of happiness.  I believe it is the only solution that has any chance of passing a bill to include everyone without attacking our culture our religion or our freedom.  I'm not necessary speaking my own viewpoints but rather representing those of many many people in this country and we have to be real about it.  They want a bill to include them, they will have to meet the majority in the middle with something that both sides can live with, plain and simple.

 

This is how we have done it in my state, they get the rights while still protecting the sacrament of Matrimony:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_Washington

[USAPLISKEN]

Damage_inc-

Shamu

This is not a topic for me because I have yet to decide who's religion knows what they are talking about.

 

Faith and Facts do not live in the same neighborhood when it comes to religion.

 

So believe what you want and I would like the same attitude reciprocated.

 

 

 

I agree with you.

 

+2

[USAPLISKEN]

PrimalFear / wrote

There are tons of passages but one will do, weather people want to confront the issue or not, it is our culture and religion of the overwhelming majority of our country and therefore valid to mention. But inappropriate to debate. (Leviticus 20:13 If a man has sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman, the two of them have committed an abomination. They must be put to death; their blood guilt is on themselves.)

 

Gay marriage is asking holy people to condone an abomination against god. (not gonna happen, not realistic and certainly not reasonable)

 

+100

[Super Max]

lol Primalfear This is not a new subject, we have talked about it in the politics section where it belongs.

 

This is no politics

 

This certainly should not belong in politics.
We're talking about ordinary life.
Politics is a dirty game where ordinary people the wool over the eyes are rotated.
Either you are screwed by the left or right by

[Sonovabich]

Live and let live i say

[PrimalFear]

Hans

lol Primalfear This is not a new subject, we have talked about it in the politics section where it belongs.

 

This is no politics

 

This certainly should not belong in politics.

We're talking about ordinary life.

Politics is a dirty game where ordinary people the wool over the eyes are rotated.

Either you are screwed by the left or right by

It absolutely is a MAJOR political issue in the USA right now, and understanding the side of each position is the only place I believe we will find a solution.  I hate nobody, but I have to realize their viewpoints and attempt to understand and respect them if I am to vote in a way that is appropriate to both my Constitution and my personal beliefs, and I do just that.  I just voted on this in my State not long ago, it is one of the biggest political issues in this country and it is both sad and frustrating on many different levels. 

[Gomer Pyle]

Pharticus

Gomer Pyle

They also believed in the separation of church and state so that no particular religion dominated or ruled this country, and that all men were created equally and with inalienable rights and the right to pursue happiness unless it infringed on others rights.

 

Almost right Gomer, I hope you just mis-spoke.  They didn't believe in the separation of church and state, but rather that there shouldn't nor wouldn't be a state sponsored religion.  Don't fall prey to the progressives rewriting our history.

You are more correct on that statement then I was, its not separation of church they believed in, but rather no state sponsored religion, thus Budaism, Hiduism, Muslim, or others,  take your pick have equal rights in determining our morality standards just as Christianity does, given our forefathers were Christian has no bearing on what the national standards are or were ever supposed to be, that in fact is exactly what they were trying to get away from such as what was happening in England and the Church of England, and why  they fled the oppression of freedom of choice and religion in the first place. Thus no state sponsored religion will be allowed INCLUDING Christianity, so all religions and freedoms from religion have equal rights and footing in this country. The citizens of this country have the right to vote into law what they feel the moral standards of this country will be, they being of every sect and religion, and even non religion, no specific religion can do so, and for that I am grateful and proud to be an American, and even though on a personal basis I lean heavily on Christian mores I yield to the rights of others and their religions to have equality and religious freedoms in this country as long as it doesn't infringe on my rights.

[PimpedOutPete]

USAPLISKEN

PrimalFear / wrote

There are tons of passages but one will do, weather people want to confront the issue or not, it is our culture and religion of the overwhelming majority of our country and therefore valid to mention. But inappropriate to debate. (Leviticus 20:13 If a man has sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman, the two of them have committed an abomination. They must be put to death; their blood guilt is on themselves.)

 

Gay marriage is asking holy people to condone an abomination against god. (not gonna happen, not realistic and certainly not reasonable)

 

+100

 They are not asking any persons of faith for anything but exceptance and the rights and freedoms everyone should enjoy as Americans. They are not preaching nor are they picketing at our churches.

 

This is not a question of faith, but rather a question of freedoms.

 

Leviticus 20:13..... I have seen the quote many times but whats left out is the context in which it was used. Death is sometimes required by the Hebrew Scriptures as the punishment for ritual transgressions. These included the worshiping of other Gods, gathering sticks on the Sabbath (Numbers 15:32-36), improper eating of ritual offerings (Numbers 18:32), ineligible persons acting as priests (Num 3:10). Over the last few centuries, most Christians and Jews have rejected Leviticus 20:13.

 

I myself do my best not to use religious quotes for they always backfire. You pretty well have to live by the book completely or its found to be hypocritical.

 

The institution of marriage conveys dignity and respect towards a couple that make a lifetime commitment to support each other. Same-sex couples deserve this dignity and respect.

 

Denying marriage to same-sex couples removes from one group a fundamental, important human right -- the right to marry the person that one loves and to whom one has made a commitment. That is unfair and unjust in a democracy.

 

These people are not asking our churches to condone this (and if they are that will most likely not happen). They want to marry as a union of two people that love each other.  If we dont.. We have stept back decades and into the 1950's desriminations.

 

 

 

 

[Cpt.TennealXI]

I don't see why hetero's should be the only ones to be miserable,and lose half their shit when things don't work out...lol

Just tryimg to inject a bit of humour into an extremely devisive and touchy subject!

[PimpedOutPete]

Cpt.TennealXI

I don't see why hetero's should be the only ones to be miserable,and lose half their shit when things don't work out...lol

Just tryimg to inject a bit of humour into an extremely devisive and touchy subject!

 lol..thx buddy..

[Gomer Pyle]

PrimalFear

This is not a new subject, we have talked about it in the politics section where it belongs.

 

First thing the gay community asked for was tolerance, once they achieved tolerance they expected acceptance, now they are seeking celebration and the changing of our laws for their own special interests. Baby steps vs Brass tacks:

 

Marriage (Matrimony) is a sacrament, a holy sacred union between a man and a woman and god.

 

Homosexuality is an abomination against god.

 

There are tons of passages but one will do, weather people want to confront the issue or not, it is our culture and religion of the overwhelming majority of our country and therefore valid to mention. But inappropriate to debate. (Leviticus 20:13 If a man has sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman, the two of them have committed an abomination. They must be put to death; their blood guilt is on themselves.)

 

Gay marriage is asking holy people to condone an abomination against god. (not gonna happen, not realistic and certainly not reasonable)

 

The only solution I see to this problem is to create a civil union process, a contract where any two adults can agree to share property from a strictly legal standpoint, it could be two siblings, a male and female or two people of the same sex.  It does not ask people with biblical viewpoints to condone anything, while still offering a solution to include all people in their right to their own pursuit of happiness.  I believe it is the only solution that has any chance of passing a bill to include everyone without attacking our culture our religion or our freedom.  I'm not necessary speaking my own viewpoints but rather representing those of many many people in this country and we have to be real about it.  They want a bill to include them, they will have to meet the majority in the middle with something that both sides can live with, plain and simple.

 

This is how we have done it in my state, they get the rights while still protecting the sacrament of Matrimony:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_Washington

 

PrimalFear,  I agree that the civil union is the least painful process to end this strife and still give gays civil rights. However one thing I cannot understand about many Christians is the absolute certainty and conceit that their God is everyones God and should be judged accordingly. So how do you know that they are following the same God you are Primal? And if they are not then how can you deny them marriage by their God? Now if they are getting married by a Baptist minister of your sect then by all means feel free to admonish the minister by not following your particular flavor of religion but that has nothing to do with the gays themselves or their rights that you take for granted. I just want one question answered in all of this, what right, justification  does anyone have to speak for everyone in this country with absolute conviction and conceit that they speak for God. By the way, your God came to me in person and told me that you were wrong, now go ahead and try to prove that I'm wrong. It is just as wrong to say because it is written in the Bible that God spoke to you and said it was wrong, That is your bible not everyones bible, go ask a Hindu what he thinks of Leviticus 20:13, I'm quite sure he would not find it in his bible. Tell me how you would feel if he started to quote passages from his bible and tell you how wrong you are in believing differently. How is it that Americans are so conceited and self  righteous that they cannot entertain the thought there are other religions in the world that don't agree with their beliefs, I simply do not understand this.  Most people here are disagreeing on what Christian sect they belong to in particular and  what that sect is saying about the subject matter and their beliefs and completely ignor and evade the reality that other religions exist have the right exist in this world that may believe differently, and that my friends is the crux of many of the problems of this world, and unfortuantly with the possible exception of the Dahli Lama who does preach religious tollerance most other religions of this world are just as intorlerant and conceited as Christianity, if we  are ever to have peace in this world and attain the one fundamental of Christianity, (do unto others etc.) that everyone seems to miss entirely, then we are going to have to come to understand the real basis of the message and take the high road. Nit picking on individual rights as to being able to marry or not according to THEIR God is missing the boat, perhaps we should really be more concerned as to the most heinous sin and most fundamental one, and that is the one of killing each other off by the millions. But do to state agendas that is the one thing no one seems to want to talk about or reverse.

[Shamu]

Primal, in the public section of XI forums there does not appear to be any Hot Topic type of forum. Most likely "Politics" is a members only forum.

[Super Max]

I am also a believer

 

Only I do not believe in a church or a book.

But why am I a religious person, and who tells me that my faith is not the true one.

I will never impose my beliefs on non believers.

 

My faith in god and the devil are in everyone.

Just let the one be more guided by the dark side than the other.

Therefore, all men are equal an have the seam rights

 

[PrimalFear]

Gomer Pyle

PrimalFear

This is not a new subject, we have talked about it in the politics section where it belongs.

 

First thing the gay community asked for was tolerance, once they achieved tolerance they expected acceptance, now they are seeking celebration and the changing of our laws for their own special interests. Baby steps vs Brass tacks:

 

Marriage (Matrimony) is a sacrament, a holy sacred union between a man and a woman and god.

 

Homosexuality is an abomination against god.

 

There are tons of passages but one will do, weather people want to confront the issue or not, it is our culture and religion of the overwhelming majority of our country and therefore valid to mention. But inappropriate to debate. (Leviticus 20:13 If a man has sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman, the two of them have committed an abomination. They must be put to death; their blood guilt is on themselves.)

 

Gay marriage is asking holy people to condone an abomination against god. (not gonna happen, not realistic and certainly not reasonable)

 

The only solution I see to this problem is to create a civil union process, a contract where any two adults can agree to share property from a strictly legal standpoint, it could be two siblings, a male and female or two people of the same sex.  It does not ask people with biblical viewpoints to condone anything, while still offering a solution to include all people in their right to their own pursuit of happiness.  I believe it is the only solution that has any chance of passing a bill to include everyone without attacking our culture our religion or our freedom.  I'm not necessary speaking my own viewpoints but rather representing those of many many people in this country and we have to be real about it.  They want a bill to include them, they will have to meet the majority in the middle with something that both sides can live with, plain and simple.

 

This is how we have done it in my state, they get the rights while still protecting the sacrament of Matrimony:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_Washington

 

PrimalFear,  I agree that the civil union is the least painful process to end this strife and still give gays civil rights. However one thing I cannot understand about many Christians is the absolute certainty and conceit that their God is everyones God and should be judged accordingly. So how do you know that they are following the same God you are Primal? And if they are not then how can you deny them marriage by their God? Now if they are getting married by a Baptist minister of your sect then by all means feel free to admonish the minister by not following your particular flavor of religion but that has nothing to do with the gays themselves or their rights that you take for granted. I just want one question answered in all of this, what right, justification  does anyone have to speak for everyone in this country with absolute conviction and conceit that they speak for God. By the way, your God came to me in person and told me that you were wrong, now go ahead and try to prove that I'm wrong. It is just as wrong to say because it is written in the Bible that God spoke to you and said it was wrong, That is your bible not everyones bible, go ask a Hindu what he thinks of Leviticus 20:13, I'm quite sure he would not find it in his bible. Tell me how you would feel if he started to quote passages from his bible and tell you how wrong you are in believing differently. How is it that Americans are so conceited and self  righteous that they cannot entertain the thought there are other religions in the world that don't agree with their beliefs, I simply do not understand this.  Most people here are disagreeing on what Christian sect they belong to in particular and  what that sect is saying about the subject matter and their beliefs and completely ignor and evade the reality that other religions exist have the right exist in this world that may believe differently, and that my friends is the crux of many of the problems of this world, and unfortuantly with the possible exception of the Dahli Lama who does preach religious tollerance most other religions of this world are just as intorlerant and conceited as Christianity, if we  are ever to have peace in this world and attain the one fundamental of Christianity, (do unto others etc.) that everyone seems to miss entirely, then we are going to have to come to understand the real basis of the message and take the high road. Nit picking on individual rights as to being able to marry or not according to THEIR God is missing the boat, perhaps we should really be more concerned as to the most heinous sin and most fundamental one, and that is the one of killing each other off by the millions. But do to state agendas that is the one thing no one seems to want to talk about or reverse.

Your doing exactly what I feared would happen, your arguing whether people of faith should or should not have an opinion of life based on that faith.  That is a useless direction to take and you will only frustrate yourself, it would be equally useless to try and tell a gay person to not be gay.  Keep in mind that biblical point of view that I posted is not necessarily my own. 

 

The issue here is that the vast overwhelming majority of the USA are people of faith, believers in a just and loving god that use the bible as their compass in life.  That book makes it very clear in several chapters how homosexuality should be looked at.  We have to respect that people follow it and believe in it and leave it at that. But let's look at the other two great religions for a second...

 

  The Torah is the primary source for Jewish views on homosexuality. It states that: "[A man] shall not lie with another man as [he would] with a woman, it is a to'eva" (Leviticus 18:22).

 

The Muslim Koran:

Our'an (7:80-84)- "...For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)" -  An account that is borrowed from the Biblical story of Sodom.  Muslim scholars through the centuries have interpreted the "rain of stones" on the town as meaning that homosexuals should be stoned, since no other reason is given for the people's destruction.  (The story is also repeated in suras 27 and 29).

 

 

Those 3 great religions represent almost everyone in the USA, at least in terms of percentages.  I don't think that either of us can expect that it is realistic for people to give up the afterlife that they believe in to accommodate people that their creator has identified as essentially "unholy" all in the name of equality when those respective books mean more to those people than the Constitution itself may/does.  That is of course absurd and would not yield any kind of result.  It is important for us to respect that each of those people from each of those religions have their beliefs, whether you or me or anyone else agrees with them or not, to do anything other than that is a useless waste of time and energy.  As Americans we have a responsibility to "embrace" that those people have those beliefs and to try to work out a mutual cooperation to both respect those great religions while still upholding the Constitution. 

 

Our opinions of those religions are not valid, it doesn't matter what we think about them.  All that matters is that we understand that they exist and are valid and important when it comes to creating law because those religions will not be checked at the door on election day and I have nothing bad to say about any of them, I have only mentioned them because this is an issue of morality for them, and what they think matters, especially when they represent "most" people in a democratic process.

 

I want to post this to anyone reading it (not directed at you Pyle) Rugger has made it very clear that bashing of any religion is a violation and will not be tolerated, so let's be careful what we say about any of these these great religions please. I don't want to cause any problems with anybody for any reason.  There is no need for that and we have members in this clan from all 3 religions and their views might differ from those I stated as well.

[PimpedOutPete]

PrimalFear

Gomer Pyle

PrimalFear

This is not a new subject, we have talked about it in the politics section where it belongs.

 

First thing the gay community asked for was tolerance, once they achieved tolerance they expected acceptance, now they are seeking celebration and the changing of our laws for their own special interests. Baby steps vs Brass tacks:

 

Marriage (Matrimony) is a sacrament, a holy sacred union between a man and a woman and god.

 

Homosexuality is an abomination against god.

 

There are tons of passages but one will do, weather people want to confront the issue or not, it is our culture and religion of the overwhelming majority of our country and therefore valid to mention. But inappropriate to debate. (Leviticus 20:13 If a man has sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman, the two of them have committed an abomination. They must be put to death; their blood guilt is on themselves.)

 

Gay marriage is asking holy people to condone an abomination against god. (not gonna happen, not realistic and certainly not reasonable)

 

The only solution I see to this problem is to create a civil union process, a contract where any two adults can agree to share property from a strictly legal standpoint, it could be two siblings, a male and female or two people of the same sex.  It does not ask people with biblical viewpoints to condone anything, while still offering a solution to include all people in their right to their own pursuit of happiness.  I believe it is the only solution that has any chance of passing a bill to include everyone without attacking our culture our religion or our freedom.  I'm not necessary speaking my own viewpoints but rather representing those of many many people in this country and we have to be real about it.  They want a bill to include them, they will have to meet the majority in the middle with something that both sides can live with, plain and simple.

 

This is how we have done it in my state, they get the rights while still protecting the sacrament of Matrimony:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_Washington

 

PrimalFear,  I agree that the civil union is the least painful process to end this strife and still give gays civil rights. However one thing I cannot understand about many Christians is the absolute certainty and conceit that their God is everyones God and should be judged accordingly. So how do you know that they are following the same God you are Primal? And if they are not then how can you deny them marriage by their God? Now if they are getting married by a Baptist minister of your sect then by all means feel free to admonish the minister by not following your particular flavor of religion but that has nothing to do with the gays themselves or their rights that you take for granted. I just want one question answered in all of this, what right, justification  does anyone have to speak for everyone in this country with absolute conviction and conceit that they speak for God. By the way, your God came to me in person and told me that you were wrong, now go ahead and try to prove that I'm wrong. It is just as wrong to say because it is written in the Bible that God spoke to you and said it was wrong, That is your bible not everyones bible, go ask a Hindu what he thinks of Leviticus 20:13, I'm quite sure he would not find it in his bible. Tell me how you would feel if he started to quote passages from his bible and tell you how wrong you are in believing differently. How is it that Americans are so conceited and self  righteous that they cannot entertain the thought there are other religions in the world that don't agree with their beliefs, I simply do not understand this.  Most people here are disagreeing on what Christian sect they belong to in particular and  what that sect is saying about the subject matter and their beliefs and completely ignor and evade the reality that other religions exist have the right exist in this world that may believe differently, and that my friends is the crux of many of the problems of this world, and unfortuantly with the possible exception of the Dahli Lama who does preach religious tollerance most other religions of this world are just as intorlerant and conceited as Christianity, if we  are ever to have peace in this world and attain the one fundamental of Christianity, (do unto others etc.) that everyone seems to miss entirely, then we are going to have to come to understand the real basis of the message and take the high road. Nit picking on individual rights as to being able to marry or not according to THEIR God is missing the boat, perhaps we should really be more concerned as to the most heinous sin and most fundamental one, and that is the one of killing each other off by the millions. But do to state agendas that is the one thing no one seems to want to talk about or reverse.

Your doing exactly what I feared would happen, your arguing whether people of faith should or should not have an opinion of life based on that faith.  That is a useless direction to take and you will only frustrate yourself, it would be equally useless to try and tell a gay person to not be gay.  Keep in mind that biblical point of view that I posted is not necessarily my own. 

 

The issue here is that the vast overwhelming majority of the USA are people of faith, believers in a just and loving god that use the bible as their compass in life.  That book makes it very clear in several chapters how homosexuality should be looked at.  We have to respect that people follow it and believe in it and leave it at that. But let's look at the other two great religions for a second...

 

  The Torah is the primary source for Jewish views on homosexuality. It states that: "[A man] shall not lie with another man as [he would] with a woman, it is a to'eva" (Leviticus 18:22).

 

The Muslim Koran:

Our'an (7:80-84)- "...For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)" -  An account that is borrowed from the Biblical story of Sodom.  Muslim scholars through the centuries have interpreted the "rain of stones" on the town as meaning that homosexuals should be stoned, since no other reason is given for the people's destruction.  (The story is also repeated in suras 27 and 29).

 

 

Those 3 great religions represent almost everyone in the USA, at least in terms of percentages.  I don't think that either of us can expect that it is realistic for people to give up the afterlife that they believe in to accommodate people that their creator has identified as essentially "unholy" all in the name of equality when those respective books mean more to those people than the Constitution itself may/does.  That is of course absurd and would not yield any kind of result.  It is important for us to respect that each of those people from each of those religions have their beliefs, whether you or me or anyone else agrees with them or not, to do anything other than that is a useless waste of time and energy.  As Americans we have a responsibility to "embrace" that those people have those beliefs and to try to work out a mutual cooperation to both respect those great religions while still upholding the Constitution. 

 

Our opinions of those religions are not valid, it doesn't matter what we think about them.  All that matters is that we understand that they exist and are valid and important when it comes to creating law because those religions will not be checked at the door on election day and I have nothing bad to say about any of them, I have only mentioned them because this is an issue of morality for them, and what they think matters, especially when they represent "most" people in a democratic process.

 

I want to post this to anyone reading it (not directed at you Pyle) Rugger has made it very clear that bashing of any religion is a violation and will not be tolerated, so let's be careful what we say about any of these these great religions please. I don't want to cause any problems with anybody for any reason.  There is no need for that and we have members in this clan from all 3 religions and their views might differ from those I stated as well.

 Prime is correct, not personal attacks on someone faith or religion will be tollerated.

 

One thing we can all agree is more harm has been to mankind in the name of faith... Im a born and raised catholic but i wont take the sole word of the Bible for God lives in my heart and in my faith..not on the pages they taught me in church or catholic school..

 

I praise those who use faith to guide their lives, but its wrong to use your own faith to prevent others in the persute of happiness and marriage.

[The Czech]

Sonovabich

Live and let live i say

agreed

[Joe Canadian]

I am also a born and raised catholic, who attended catholic school but I don't go stictly "by the book" in life. I prefer to have my own opinions and make my own decisions. Tolerance to other ideas and opinions is a virtue.

Cheers

Joe

 

[Gomer Pyle]

PrimalFear

Gomer Pyle

PrimalFear

This is not a new subject, we have talked about it in the politics section where it belongs.

 

First thing the gay community asked for was tolerance, once they achieved tolerance they expected acceptance, now they are seeking celebration and the changing of our laws for their own special interests. Baby steps vs Brass tacks:

 

Marriage (Matrimony) is a sacrament, a holy sacred union between a man and a woman and god.

 

Homosexuality is an abomination against god.

 

There are tons of passages but one will do, weather people want to confront the issue or not, it is our culture and religion of the overwhelming majority of our country and therefore valid to mention. But inappropriate to debate. (Leviticus 20:13 If a man has sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman, the two of them have committed an abomination. They must be put to death; their blood guilt is on themselves.)

 

Gay marriage is asking holy people to condone an abomination against god. (not gonna happen, not realistic and certainly not reasonable)

 

The only solution I see to this problem is to create a civil union process, a contract where any two adults can agree to share property from a strictly legal standpoint, it could be two siblings, a male and female or two people of the same sex.  It does not ask people with biblical viewpoints to condone anything, while still offering a solution to include all people in their right to their own pursuit of happiness.  I believe it is the only solution that has any chance of passing a bill to include everyone without attacking our culture our religion or our freedom.  I'm not necessary speaking my own viewpoints but rather representing those of many many people in this country and we have to be real about it.  They want a bill to include them, they will have to meet the majority in the middle with something that both sides can live with, plain and simple.

 

This is how we have done it in my state, they get the rights while still protecting the sacrament of Matrimony:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_Washington

 

PrimalFear,  I agree that the civil union is the least painful process to end this strife and still give gays civil rights. However one thing I cannot understand about many Christians is the absolute certainty and conceit that their God is everyones God and should be judged accordingly. So how do you know that they are following the same God you are Primal? And if they are not then how can you deny them marriage by their God? Now if they are getting married by a Baptist minister of your sect then by all means feel free to admonish the minister by not following your particular flavor of religion but that has nothing to do with the gays themselves or their rights that you take for granted. I just want one question answered in all of this, what right, justification  does anyone have to speak for everyone in this country with absolute conviction and conceit that they speak for God. By the way, your God came to me in person and told me that you were wrong, now go ahead and try to prove that I'm wrong. It is just as wrong to say because it is written in the Bible that God spoke to you and said it was wrong, That is your bible not everyones bible, go ask a Hindu what he thinks of Leviticus 20:13, I'm quite sure he would not find it in his bible. Tell me how you would feel if he started to quote passages from his bible and tell you how wrong you are in believing differently. How is it that Americans are so conceited and self  righteous that they cannot entertain the thought there are other religions in the world that don't agree with their beliefs, I simply do not understand this.  Most people here are disagreeing on what Christian sect they belong to in particular and  what that sect is saying about the subject matter and their beliefs and completely ignor and evade the reality that other religions exist have the right exist in this world that may believe differently, and that my friends is the crux of many of the problems of this world, and unfortuantly with the possible exception of the Dahli Lama who does preach religious tollerance most other religions of this world are just as intorlerant and conceited as Christianity, if we  are ever to have peace in this world and attain the one fundamental of Christianity, (do unto others etc.) that everyone seems to miss entirely, then we are going to have to come to understand the real basis of the message and take the high road. Nit picking on individual rights as to being able to marry or not according to THEIR God is missing the boat, perhaps we should really be more concerned as to the most heinous sin and most fundamental one, and that is the one of killing each other off by the millions. But do to state agendas that is the one thing no one seems to want to talk about or reverse.

Your doing exactly what I feared would happen, your arguing whether people of faith should or should not have an opinion of life based on that faith.  That is a useless direction to take and you will only frustrate yourself, it would be equally useless to try and tell a gay person to not be gay.  Keep in mind that biblical point of view that I posted is not necessarily my own. 

 

The issue here is that the vast overwhelming majority of the USA are people of faith, believers in a just and loving god that use the bible as their compass in life.  That book makes it very clear in several chapters how homosexuality should be looked at.  We have to respect that people follow it and believe in it and leave it at that. But let's look at the other two great religions for a second...

 

  The Torah is the primary source for Jewish views on homosexuality. It states that: "[A man] shall not lie with another man as [he would] with a woman, it is a to'eva" (Leviticus 18:22).

 

The Muslim Koran:

Our'an (7:80-84)- "...For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)" -  An account that is borrowed from the Biblical story of Sodom.  Muslim scholars through the centuries have interpreted the "rain of stones" on the town as meaning that homosexuals should be stoned, since no other reason is given for the people's destruction.  (The story is also repeated in suras 27 and 29).

 

 

Those 3 great religions represent almost everyone in the USA, at least in terms of percentages.  I don't think that either of us can expect that it is realistic for people to give up the afterlife that they believe in to accommodate people that their creator has identified as essentially "unholy" all in the name of equality when those respective books mean more to those people than the Constitution itself may/does.  That is of course absurd and would not yield any kind of result.  It is important for us to respect that each of those people from each of those religions have their beliefs, whether you or me or anyone else agrees with them or not, to do anything other than that is a useless waste of time and energy.  As Americans we have a responsibility to "embrace" that those people have those beliefs and to try to work out a mutual cooperation to both respect those great religions while still upholding the Constitution. 

 

Our opinions of those religions are not valid, it doesn't matter what we think about them.  All that matters is that we understand that they exist and are valid and important when it comes to creating law because those religions will not be checked at the door on election day and I have nothing bad to say about any of them, I have only mentioned them because this is an issue of morality for them, and what they think matters, especially when they represent "most" people in a democratic process.

 

I want to post this to anyone reading it (not directed at you Pyle) Rugger has made it very clear that bashing of any religion is a violation and will not be tolerated, so let's be careful what we say about any of these these great religions please. I don't want to cause any problems with anybody for any reason.  There is no need for that and we have members in this clan from all 3 religions and their views might differ from those I stated as well.

Primal, I fully agree that everyone has a right to have faith, I in fact have a deep faith, and I appreciate that you have quoted Rugger about bashing any religion, and to that end I know now now that you believe the way I do since intolerance of others beliefs based strictly on your own faith would be bashing others peoples faiths, so at least now I know that you are a tolerant person and believe in the sanctity of live and let live as well as allowing others to believe the way they wish.  While might makes right (and numbers), is certainly a good argument, there are many other people of faith not associated with the three main religions (ie Native American beliefs as an exsample which I happen to be a part of 2 different tribes) which are just as valid and important. I am truly glad to see that you accept these as well and feel the same way I do, thanks for being astute and tolerant  of your fellow man. This has been a good discussion and I take nothing personally and appreciate  the fact that you do not either, in most of these things we are really in agreement.